Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hello and welcome to the Coaching in Education Podcast Series. I'm Leigh Hatcher.
I'm in a Zoom conversation with Sue Richards, a Victorian-based Growth Coaching senior consultant who's worked in primary education for 40 years in a range of roles, including classroom teacher and leader.
She'll be speaking about her experience leading a program at Lara Lake Public School in Victoria in a graduate coaching program, supporting graduates in literacy teaching and learning, and classroom management. This is a school-based story about how using a coaching approach can support beginning teachers.

Sue Richards:
I've always, right from the start of my career, believed in the importance of professional learning for myself and for others, and have been fortunate in much of my career, particularly the second half of the career, to be involved in one way or another in that area. I now understand the value of having a growth mindset and how important this is in building capacity, my own and others.
Early on of course in the primary system and the secondary system as well, professional learning was usually part of a whole school focus, so it was a "have to" goal over a "want to" goal. As a school leader, part of my role was planning for and implementing the school's change initiatives. I've always found this rewarding and still do actually.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm sure, even after 40 years.

Sue Richards:
Yes. It's not bad. As our school grew, we employed a number of graduate teachers who brought so much to the school in terms of their freshness, enthusiasm, energy, and of course their dress sense.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Very important, Sue!

Sue Richards:
Indeed. It was important to me that these beginning teachers had the opportunity to be engaged in conversations about teaching and learning, but exposed to models of good practice. This led to my opportunity to work with each of them in what we called at that time, "coaching", but in many ways it was much more of a mentoring approach, where I worked with each graduate teacher initially developing classroom management and then focusing a curriculum area. I'd model the lesson in their classroom, they'd observe, and then we'd have that very important conversation about what they saw, but often with me doing much of the talking.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Mentoring vs coaching, Sue. How do you see the difference between these two terms? Are they mutually exclusive do you reckon?

Sue Richards:
It's a really interesting question, and we often get asked that at our GCI training programs, whether there is at times a place in coaching for mentoring. In those GCI training programs, we talk about the notion of a conversational continuum* with mentoring being on one end and coaching on the other. The idea being that one is more directed, involving advising and showing, whereas the other is more open, utilising questions and the experience of the other to achieve their own insights, and as a result, actions.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's a really important distinction.

Sue Richards:
Absolutely. There's no clear designated spot or place on this continuum where one stops and the other starts, but rather, time's a fluidity, a natural movement between the two that's actually in response to the needs of the coachee. That's what governs the conversation, what the coachee says in response to the question asked, and sometimes the coach's response might fit into the mentoring model. The skilled coach understands almost intuitively or instinctively if you like, when to shift on that continuum as they listen deeply to what's said.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
As you began that approach, how did it feel for you moving from the theory to the practice, Sue?

Sue Richards:
There's no doubt that when I first began working with graduates it was very much the mentor model. I was inclined to tell or offer a suggestion, give advice if you like. But instinctively I also understood the importance of asking a question that would lead to the teacher's own learning, and I guess it was my experience as a classroom teacher that taught me that. I always saw good questioning as an essential ingredient in quality teaching, so unconsciously at first, I applied this in my work with graduates, and it worked.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hardly surprising.

Sue Richards:
Asking more questions, quite simple ones like "What made that work?," or "What difference did that make?," or "What impact did that have on the kids?," became a part of the conversation after an observation, and then the conversation would just flow.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What a marvellous thing to see.

Sue Richards:
Oh, it was. It was exciting to see that light switch on I guess. As I worked with more young teachers and became more clear in my own mind of what was working, it seemed that asking the right questions was really helpful. This became more of a focus of our work together. Getting them to think, to notice, and to reflect. That's how I guess it became more of a blended approach of mentoring and coaching.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're listening to the Coaching in Education podcast series with Sue Richards, a Growth Coaching senior consultant.
What was the feedback from the graduates as this program started to unfold?

Sue Richards:
That's what was really helpful, Leigh. That feedback was so positive. It highlighted the value of having a focus for our work together and setting a goal that we came up with together based on what was the curriculum focus of the school, or a need that they'd identified. Initially, it was framed around what they wanted to achieve, but early on didn't describe what would be better as a result of it being achieved, as we do as part of the growth model. But it did serve to keep us focused and to have a reference point, and most importantly, to celebrate growth, which is a hugely important part of the coaching process.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's a great part, yes.

Sue Richards:
Oh, yes. I'm a big believer in a celebration, there's no doubt about it. It was one of the huge privileges of working with these teachers, one of the huge reasons of why I loved it so much. The realisation that things were shifting and improving and they were feeling more confident in their capacities, and as a result the kids were improving.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Marvellous.

Sue Richards:
It was. It was marvellous. Being clear on what was working and celebrating that was a really important part of my approach, and something that the graduates really appreciated. That clapping of hands and joyful - it worked!

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And champagne later in the day.

Sue Richards:
Oh, yes.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Let me ask you this. Was it that you became more conscious of when you were mentoring and when you were coaching rather than it being a kind of either/or scenario, Sue?

Sue Richards:
Yep. That was the big insight for me. That's what happened over time, particularly after my enrolling in one of GCI's training programs. As I understood the coaching model and I saw it was different to mentoring, but also how it sometimes fits and works with coaching, that was really helpful. As I learned more about the coaching approach, mentoring was no longer my default position, and I became more conscious of listening to what the teacher was saying, and asking a question rather than telling. We both did a whole lot of learning, the graduate and me.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What a shift.

Sue Richards:
So, the ‘telling’ became the later resort rather than the first resort. That's the way I like to think of it. It became the later resort. I became more skilled at asking a question that would encourage the teacher to think for themselves about what was working and therefore what their next focus might be.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You were fortunate enough to have a GCI coach yourself, Sue.

Sue Richards:
I was indeed. It was hugely impactive on my growth as a leader and my self-awareness and sense of efficacy. I found that the questions that the coach used were so effective, and I knew that I could apply that to my work with graduates. I completed the Coaching Accreditation Program and it was really helpful in enabling me to be more conscious of when to shift in that conversational continuum* to grow the awareness and efficacy in the teacher.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What a great journey. Tell us about the impact that this growth model had on your work with graduates, Sue.

Sue Richards:
Well, firstly, it made me more conscious of talking less. Indeed, listening more and talking less. Working with graduates over a number of years made me realise how important it was to find out what they knew and not make assumptions, just as with kids.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What an insight.

Sue Richards:
It made me understand that I needed to slow down and listen more, and as I've said, ask more questions. The growth model gave me that framework which to ask those questions in, so with my graduates I was more inclined to ask them for options first, rather than me be the first person that gave an option.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And they're doing a whole lot more thinking as they would ordinarily do probably.

Sue Richards:
Exactly Leigh, yeah.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What else made the program work, Sue, do you reckon?

Sue Richards:
Well, what as a school we did have in place that helped the program work was dedicated time set aside where I would meet with each graduate teacher, so it wasn't during their time release. We actually set aside time. It was an expectation where we would meet one on one and have a conversation around the goal and what was working. I would make time to go into their rooms and model the lesson with a focus that we'd identified together as an area for their growth, and that pretty much depended on where the teacher was at. It was that mix of observing a lesson, talking about the lesson, identifying what needed to be improved, the teacher having a go, with me then observing the teacher, and then having another conversation about what worked.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What else made the program work, Sue, do you reckon?

Sue Richards:
Well, what as a school we did have in place that helped the program work was dedicated time set aside where I would meet with each graduate teacher, so it wasn't during their time release. We actually set aside time. It was an expectation where we would meet one on one and have a conversation around the goal and what was working. I would make time to go into their rooms and model the lesson with a focus that we'd identified together as an area for their growth, and that pretty much depended on where the teacher was at. It was that mix of observing a lesson, talking about the lesson, identifying what needed to be improved, the teacher having a go, with me then observing the teacher, and then having another conversation about what worked.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
So, can I put it like this? That you're learning was around finding maybe the right balance of coaching and mentoring when working with beginning teachers. That right?

Sue Richards:
Yes. There was definitely a lot of learning that went on for me.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Not a bad thing, Sue, after all this time.

Sue Richards:
Absolutely. An essential thing.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You bet.

Sue Richards:
As I grew more confident with the growth model, that almost intuitive knowing around asking questions became more conscious and focused knowing, where I would actually ask a question first and then, depending on what was said or not said, decide to shift more toward the mentoring end of the conversation continuum. The teacher was more in control, if you like.
The focus was always on growing the teacher's capacity. I guess it was just that early on, that was more likely to take the form of a mentoring approach, whereas later it was more likely to be firstly a coaching approach, so my default changed.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's very interesting. That's quite a shift.

Sue Richards:
Yeah. I learned to offer a suggestion not as "the" idea, but as an option. I stopped seeing myself as the one with the answers and saw us as co-constructors if you like, of ideas that might be worth a go. My graduates in particular learned so much from conversations about lessons that “didn't work “ as we ignored that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's revealing.

Sue Richards:
Once they realised that that was okay, the conversations about things that hadn't worked became really, really rich. This was where relational trust was so important, and even though it was something that we didn't actually discuss, I became really aware of how integral it is for effective coaching or mentoring, and I'm far more conscious now of purposely growing that trust whenever I'm coaching.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I want to be in your class with all this! Is there one particular graduate or instance that you can briefly think of, Sue, where all this has come together for that person's great benefit? I'm sure you have many stories, but one in particular?

Sue Richards:
Yes. I feel very fortunate to have worked with the young people I have. They've all been wonderful, and I'm always impressed by their commitment and dedication to this wonderful work of teaching.
One in particular, which was probably my final year of my role at Lara Lake, and he was a first-year graduate with such enthusiasm and energy and commitment. Very, very insightful, and it was wonderful to watch his face ... He had a very expressive face ... As I'd ask him a question, to see what happened as he reflected and gained insights around what was working, and the throwback of the body as he would look up and go "Ahhh."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's a very common story actually. The physical impact.

Sue Richards:
Exactly. He did it so beautifully. He spoke really quickly and he was very articulate. He'd throw back his body. He'd look up, and he's "Ohhh." Then he'd articulate what he was thinking, and I would simply say, "What's clearer now as you've heard yourself say what you just realised? What's next for you?" And away he'd go.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Oh, I love it. I love it!

Sue Richards:
He'd leave the room with such energy and enthusiasm. He would see me in the corridor the next day and approach me with a story of what was working. That energy was just wonderful.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What a marvellous thing for him and you too, Sue.

Sue Richards:
Ahhh. And I got paid for it, Leigh. It's amazing.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're an absolute legend even when you get paid, and especially when you get paid for it. Sue Richards, thank you so much for joining us in an inspiring conversation. Good on you.

Sue Richards:
Oh Leigh Hatcher, beautifully said.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've been listening to the Growth Coaching International Case Study podcast series. I'm Leigh Hatcher. Check out some of our other great podcasts in this series Inspiring and educational. They're atwww.growthcoaching.com.au