Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hello, and welcome to the Coaching in Education Podcast Series. I'm Leigh Hatcher, in conversation with Maria Serafim. Maria has been a Director, and worked with New South Wales Public Schools for more than a decade, and is well known to many in the field of Education Leadership, and in particular for her application of a solutions focused coaching approach to strategy and planning. Maria's story is an important one in terms of impact and improvement in education.

Maria Serafim:
Coaching for me was a time where I recognised giving advice seemed to take power away from people and asking questions actually gave it back to them. So, from that opportunity, which probably happened in a time when I was delving into a greater sphere of influence in supporting leaders to be the best they can be, so that our kids could be the best they could be, I recognised it became the art of asking clever, strategic, open questions that allowed people to be left in a better place to lead.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
From your experience, then, why do questions turn out to be so effective? What's happening there?

Maria Serafim:
It's about opening minds to possibilities, it's about people considering a way of thinking that maybe they hadn't thought before. In particular, in education, the complex role of the principal in what we'd call the VUCA world - that volatile, unpredictable, complex, ambiguous world - it's about bringing that back to what's our unchangeable core in terms of what drives us as educators? And that's about putting our kids in the best place to be living fulfilling lives, and giving them the skills to do that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I want to ask you about the solutions focused approach, Maria, and how you've used it. I want to get practical. First of all, what are we talking about there, and how is it applied? How have you applied it in your own career and in education?

Maria Serafim:
Solution focused coaching opened a new door for me. It went from, not just questions, it went to using statements, and building an awareness and a noticing mindset. So, in terms of using that with colleagues, it was about learning to affirm and giving myself permission to say, "I'm really impressed with what you're doing." In a coaching context, I often would think that, that's more of a judgement, and what I've realised now, affirm, affirm, affirm, build that positivity. It's built trust in ways that I don't believe I could ever have experienced it before, and from that platform we've been able to change the way we work together as leaders. It's been quite extraordinary.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
See, I would have thought as a leader that would be part of your armoury, praise and affirmation. But are you saying that you were kind of hesitant to do that before?

Maria Serafim:
I believe that I was more open to asking the questions, inquiring, leaving people empowered, and being more cautious around overemphasising what I was impressed with. Now, from that solution focused way of thinking, focus on what is working well, expand that as much as possible, and then build from a platform that's common to all of us. It's been a collective growth.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Can you give us an everyday example from your experience of how you've done that? Describe for me an interaction between a fellow leader in education, or principal, or teacher? How does it work in practise?

Maria Serafim:
Sure. Most recently, this week, we hosted in inverted commas “dinner party” to discuss leadership in a school, and I'd invited the principal to host the dinner party with their leaders and invite them to bring Favourites, as in that classic box of Favourites. But, more so, what are your favourite leadership skills and qualities?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
How enlightened.

Maria Serafim:
It was extraordinary.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'll bet.

Maria Serafim:
The idea came from a solution focused approach to considering the leader as a host. So, moving from being the hero as leader, or the servant as leader, and now to the host. So, just as we're sitting at a round table, the idea of sitting amongst people, being invitational, being a co-participant.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
And over a meal.

Maria Serafim:
Over a meal. And so, the casual nature of the environment, yet we were talking about such deep, important things in relation to leadership skills and qualities.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that night.

Maria Serafim:
Well, we recorded this, and it's something for them to now look back over and to remind themselves about what they said about each other, and the cross affirmations, which we established early on, "Let's affirm each other, let’s be curious, let's see what we’ve noticed." Wonderful.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah, it sounds like another podcast coming, to me. How does this actually work, Maria, at a system level, would you say? What are you actually doing in schools?

Maria Serafim:
We started at the beginning of this year, we applied a strategy canvas. I was supported by Growth Coaching International, through an opportunity that they had to facilitate what a strategy canvas might look like. This was an invitation for me to the 32 principals that I work with to say, "Come and co-design my goals with me so that you can contribute to the way you want me to work with you." At the beginning of the year that's what we did, and in a nutshell, a strategy canvas was coming up with a common platform. It wouldn't surprise anyone as educators that we just wanted to make sure that our kids were making at least one year's growth for one year of learning. What do we need to do that? We need our principals to be well, and their wellbeing to be a focus, and we needed to focus on their educational leadership. So, that was an all-encompassing common platform that was agreed by all 32 principals. From there we worked out what five things must we do to achieve that?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Anyone hesitant or doubtful, or suspicious even?

Maria Serafim:
We definitely had conversations around, "How's this going to look?" And respecting that each individual leader operates in their own way, and that's the beauty of a solution focused approach, which is, every case is different. My mutual respect with principals was around, "Do it the way you need to do it." From those five things that we had to get right, we applied a scale to say, "Well, out of those five things, out of ten, what are we getting right from that?" So, to give you an example, collectively we decided we were hitting the mark for principal wellbeing because of the way we worked together, and it was a seven out of 10. That's pretty good. So, there was the affirming. Let's affirm, affirm, affirm what we're doing well and let's continue to build that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Anyone hesitant or doubtful, or suspicious even?

Maria Serafim:
We definitely had conversations around, "How's this going to look?" And respecting that each individual leader operates in their own way, and that's the beauty of a solution focused approach, which is, every case is different. My mutual respect with principals was around, "Do it the way you need to do it." From those five things that we had to get right, we applied a scale to say, "Well, out of those five things, out of ten, what are we getting right from that?" So, to give you an example, collectively we decided we were hitting the mark for principal wellbeing because of the way we worked together, and it was a seven out of 10. That's pretty good. So, there was the affirming. Let's affirm, affirm, affirm what we're doing well and let's continue to build that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
The word empowerment comes to my mind immediately.

Maria Serafim:
From there we just had to take small actions within the next 48, 72 hours, what are we going to do, and then set a timeline and course for what's been a wonderful year to date.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're listening to the Coaching in Education Podcast Series. I'm in conversation with Maria Seraphim, a Director of Public Schools at the New South Wales Department of Education. So, on the ground, what's been the response to this solutions focused approach in schools? How is it filtered through there?

Maria Serafim:
It's probably best to give an example. So, from the first term, each of the principals used that common platform and formed their own goal around that. So, we had a common goal, every principal in every one of the schools, their own iteration of that platform. In term two, I said to them I'd like to come and observe this platform in action, and rather than tell principals how I wanted to do that, I co-designed what that would look like and out came this wonderful creation that I would never have done myself. Principal colleagues created what we called SHARE visits. SHARE standing for School Highlights A Realistic Experience, and we created an expectation that, that would be meeting and talking to kids, meeting and talking to teachers, and having a conversation with the leader and their executive. We had an extraordinary time together from that experience.
In fact, it was so well embraced with every one of the 32 schools taking that on board, in this past term at least half of the schools have asked for another visit in that vein, and they've invited colleagues to join them.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Oh, marvellous. What do you see humanly happening with people that you're bringing along in this process in their own professional growth and personal growth?

Maria Serafim:
I believe in openness to having genuine, trusting relationships, which means that we are building off success rather than just focused on accountability, which can at times be something that can stress and hinder our capacity to create and be innovative. We don't want people leading in fear. My view is that where people have a trusting, open relationship, where we can show some vulnerability, which means I've had to show that and admit it, and colleagues have been able to reciprocate and do the same thing, we're in a team and we're doing it together.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
I'm sure you see people glowing and growing through this process personally?

Maria Serafim:
I'd invite you to talk to them. I think what's in a podcast is a conversation with the principal to say, "What has the impact been?" What have they seen? Again, with solution focused approach my experience has been not to make assumptions about what my perceptions are. It's about going out and really experiencing that action, being in the interaction with people, so I'm present and I'm there, and deeply engaging, and learning, and growing, and being open to whatever comes from that experience.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What would you say it's done for your own personal professional development, Maria?

Maria Serafim:
It's definitely opened me up to being more vulnerable and real with people, to being a leader that recognises I've got to take responsibility for that sphere of influence, and being excited about that impact, and recognising I can't do it alone. So, I've become "co." That's my shortened version of co-creator, co-designer, collaborator, cooperative, and that's just compelled me ... that's another "co" ... to continue. I don't mean to keep adding puns with the "co's," but to continue-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
There's no end to this.

Maria Serafim:
To continue with this approach. There's more to do, and I do believe that my perception may be much more heightened, and I see it as much more exciting than maybe some others may. However, I'm open to having the feedback and learning about the impact, which I've continued to do.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Is a risky thing to do?

Maria Serafim:
Originally, I suppose. As I said, the affirmation was something new and different to the way I operated. It's been wonderful to just say, "I'm so impressed with," and, "I love that," and "Isn't it great when?" Giving myself permission to do that was originally a risk, and for me now I've recognised that's who I am, and I've embraced the opportunity to just "Be you, be real, and just get out there and do it."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Which all sounds great, and it is. How sustainable is it, do you think? Or what's being done to continue it? This great work.

Maria Serafim:
If leadership is about inspiring and influencing, then sustainability is in what you leave behind when you're not there. Isn't it? And that's what we want for the children we impact on. So, for me every conversation is an opportunity to model, and have someone experience, what it feels like ... because we know that's what people remember ... for them to have come away from that conversation. Did we leave them better off? Did we leave them feeling valued? Did we leave them feeling like they were in a place where they could continue to inspire? So, the solution focused tools are ones that I embed in the way that I talk, and there's a desire that if you're role modelling, others will see that, that's something that's sustainable that they continue to do.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
From your wealth of experience as a "co" in so many ways, you got any practical tips for how people can implement this so that this can be a benefit, both to them and the school?

Maria Serafim:
From your wealth of experience as a "co" in so many ways, you got any practical tips for how people can implement this so that this can be a benefit, both to them and the school?

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Not in a false way, though?

Maria Serafim:
Not in a false way.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You don't want suck ups.

Maria Serafim:
I've shared this with, particularly many women, and we'd talk about empowerment of women in leadership. There's a wonderful little anecdote from Brene Brown, and she talks about having on your Post-It note the people that are going to give you feedback who love and trust, and are going to say things that you may not want to hear because that's going to impact on you. But, it's coming from a good place and you know it. She says the thing to do is think about who's on that small Post-It note for you, and if you get feedback from someone whose opinion doesn't quite match who the people are that are one your Post-It note, just say to them, "Thank you very much for your feedback." With a nice smile, and quietly in your head say, "But, you're not on my list."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
"I've lost you immediately."

Maria Serafim:
I think that's what it's about. I've been open to feedback and I've role modelled that to my colleagues. I've had people being interviewed anonymously about my work with them, and then had received summary reports about that. It's not all shining lights there about what I've been doing, because we can't be everything to everybody.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're human, Maria. Yes.

Maria Serafim:
Exactly. The bottom line is, I've then got to look at that and say, "Are there things here that are giving me messages about the way I'm impacting on people?" There are more than 15,000 students that I could be potentially impacting on in these 32 schools, so that's a big responsibility. I've got to get that right.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Let me ask you, finally, where's this heading? What's the next step? What's the next of palate of colours as you see this kind of approach applied?

Maria Serafim:
Working with public schools in The Department of Education, New South Wales, is a very rewarding experience where we are being given the scope to embed and explore, and be innovative around how we work together, and I believe we've just got to continue doing what we're doing and growing in the way we are growing.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
This certainly would fit into that?

Maria Serafim:
Absolutely. My view is that that the way that we work with people, and the way that we leave people feeling after our interactions, is what matters most. That comes from kids to kids, teachers to kids, principals to staff, principals to community. So, this is a way of doing, and my view is that we're just building on what many people are already intuitively, and providing some opportunities through such things like solution focused tools to continue to do that.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've absolutely inspired me. What great stories, and what great impact in such an important area in our society, Maria. Thank you so much indeed for joining us.

Maria Serafim:
Great to talk with you.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've been listening to The Coaching in Education Podcast Series. Check out some of our other great podcasts in the series. They're at www.growthcoaching.com.au