Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Hello, I'm Leigh Hatcher with the Growth Coaching International Podcast. I'm in conversation with Jason Pascoe, on making conversations count in schools. The range of those conversations may well surprise you. Jason is a Director of Growth Coaching International, he's a highly experienced coach and facilitator, who works with teams and organisations in the education sector from classroom teachers to senior system leaders. And it's interesting, coaching in schools and other education institutions has only coming into its own over the last decade or so. Why is that?

Jason Pascoe:
Probably worth clarifying, the type of coaching we're talking about here is a very specific type of conversation. Probably best described as non-directive. So, it differentiates it a little bit from sport and thinking about it. One of the best ways to capture it is with a definition from Sir John Whitmore. And Sir John Whitmore would define coaching as unlocking someone's hidden potential, and I think that resonates with the education community, because that's what it's about. It's the second part that's a little bit counter intuitive. The second part of the definition is, it's more about helping people learn rather than teaching them.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Jason Pascoe:
That's where the interest in coaching and education has started to build.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
We'll get to the what's the difference between coaching and mentoring thing a bit later, which I think further clarifies that. But, why do you think coaching is becoming so important in education now?

Jason Pascoe:
We've got to remember that educational environments are often very fast-paced and quite functional. What lies beneath that is a whole system of relationships, and not just one, but relationships within relationships. Student to student, teacher to student, and so on.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
Right through to leadership and then out into the broader community, so really what we're talking about is schools as complex relational environments. When you think about relationships, the more I do this sort of stuff, I'm realising that the fundamental element of any sort of organisation is not necessarily a human being, but it's a relationship and its conversations that build, grow, and sustain those relationships. So, the importance lies in each of the interactions within that relational environment.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It is a very different approach and a very different framework of thinking to the school that I grew up in, and it was an average school, but they were the teacher and they just told you what to do. Nothing about relationships.

Jason Pascoe:
Yeah, I suppose in some ways, and if you think about, you need to make conversations across a continuum, then for a long time, education has probably been at a directive end of the continuum.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
We've started to explore or expand our approach to conversations, and this specific type of conversation, the coaching conversation, sits at that more non-direct end. What it's about is allowing people to navigate their context. So, there's an example I'll often use in workshops and I'll say to teachers, "When I was a teacher, the class that I taught might have exactly the same students in it as the class that you teach. The lesson after I teach it, but they're still two different classes, because the interaction can be incredibly different." Conversation that's less directive begins to come into play to meet that contextual need.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Is it a challenge for some teachers, that new kind of thinking?

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely.Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely. I mentioned before. It's a counterintuitive thing, so it's not just about teaching people. It's about helping them learn.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Can I ask you, what types of conversations are we talking about in this framework?

Jason Pascoe:
Well, if that conversational continuum that I mentioned before, some examples would be, if we're down at that very directive end of the continuum-

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
It's quite legitimate to say, "Look. Can you just go and do this, this, and this? Come back and let me know how it's going." Because we need to keep things moving, and in no way are we saying, "Coaching is the only type of conversation." This is the different type.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
If you move along the continuum a little bit, you come into more of a mentoring relationship, which has an experiential or an expertise differential. So, a more experienced person sharing the learning or the journey with a less experienced person. Coaching is even further along the continuum towards that non-directive end. Look, the best way I can describe it. When I found this type of conversation, my private definition, if you like was, "It's a privilege to walk beside someone as they see their way through situations where they never thought there was a way."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
They are finding their way.

Jason Pascoe:
They are finding their way.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
The coach is asking good questions, clarifying, listening for what's wanted, not just a problem, a challenge, or an issue, and supporting that person to maybe see things slightly differently, and therefore, walk back out into their context and maybe try something different.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
So, a lot of this skill from the coach, is the ability to ask good questions, but that's the result of training, isn't it?

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It doesn't come naturally necessarily?

Jason Pascoe:
Well, yeah. People tend towards different, or like to spend different times along that particular continuum or along the places in the continuum that they spend time, I should say, seem to be more natural for some than others. One of the keys is, it's learning to listen differently before you can ask better questions.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Jason Pascoe:
So it's listening for what's wanted, not just the content of a problem, a challenge, or an issue.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's challenging, too.

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely. To pick up themes and try it out in a coaching conversation, so people in some ways, we've got a bit of a pessimism bias. Especially in these fast-paced functional relational environments. You can ask someone a very neutral question like, "How is your day?" And you can get it.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Get ready.

Jason Pascoe:
Yeah, that's it. If we're picking out questions differently and trying them out in the relationship, effectively we're nudging the relationship and people can't respond to us the same way that maybe they used to.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah, so clarify for us the difference between a mentor and a coach. See, before I went through this very stuff, I never realised that there was much of a difference at all, but there's a big difference.

Jason Pascoe:
Yeah. Look, probably the biggest difference that stands out is that expertise or experience differential. The more experienced person with a less experienced person. Sharing ideas. Sharing ways forward. Things to try. Incredibly useful relationship. Coaching tries to take that expertise differential out of the conversationand create a space where people get to reflect. They get to explore the way they see their context and begin to think about it a little bit differently. So it's not ... This is the feedback we get from people. Especially from leaders, educational leaders, are things like, "I don't have to have all the answers."Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
That's a big shift for some people.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Quite a liberating thing.

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You're listening to the Growth Coaching International Podcast. I'm in conversation with GCI Director Jason Pascoe. So this approach might be a big challenge to the person being coached by someone whose likely to be much more experienced and knowledgeable than me. I might just want them to tell me the answer.

Jason Pascoe:
Look, it's a challenge and we hear this often from people in workshops. Where they are very used to having people come to them and say, "So what do I do here?" And telling. There's a term we use sometimes in education, or talking about ourselves as educators, that we can often be well-intentioned fixers. When you overlay that in that fast-paced environment of a school, sometimes it can seem easier to give someone some advice and let them go out and try it. One of the things we're very clear on with educational leaders is, that as soon as you change something in the interaction, rather than give advice, you ask a question or you clarify, the person that's interacting with you can't respond the same way anymore. So effectively, you're changing the relationship conversationally.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes, yes.

Jason Pascoe:
And to be able to hold that space as a leader does take some time and some discipline.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
What's an outcome going to look like, Jason? In practise of coaching, what's it going to look like? Sound like?

Jason Pascoe:
Lots of stories. Lots of stories come to mind as you ask that. Look, let's start with some of the research. Joyce and Showers, two researchers, have been looking at coaching in education for quite some time. They found that, especially if teachers go out to a professional learning session, they come back to school. You can expect anywhere from 10% to maybe 19% implementation in the classroom.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Jason Pascoe:
We've got a great video on the website from another researcher, Dr. Jim Knight, who also talks about the importance of coaching around professional learning.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
So both Joyce and Showers, and Jim Knight are saying, "If you can come back from professional learning sessions, connect with someone who can have a coaching conversation with you. You can expect somewhere between 87% and 95% implementation in the classroom."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
That's significant.

Jason Pascoe:
Absolutely, and we're talking about taking ... We're not saying that there's anything wrong with going out to professional learning. Let's take the evidence base that we often hear about in professional learning, apply it conversationally in a coaching conversation back at school, and create our context-based evidence, and that can make all the difference.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
So take us through the steps from the training of coaches through to how that's applied in the real life circumstance in the school.

Jason Pascoe:
The application is not just, "Let's sit down and have a formal coaching conversation." These skills and these conversational strategies apply across that conversational continuum that we mentioned before.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
So as a leader, I might not take off my school principal's hat, for example, but I still want to ask questions. I want to clarify. I want to get a sense of where a conversation's at by the time it comes to me. Take our scaffolding of a conversation using the growth model. It's not just, "Leigh, let's sit down and spend 30 minutes going from G to H." It's not a sausage factory.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah, yeah.

Jason Pascoe:
What we're talking about is, if I've got that scaffolding of a conversation in mind, you can be coming to me and asking me some questions about, "Oh, I wonder if we should try this? Or, what about we try this with year eight, for example?" I'm listening to that and I'm thinking, "Okay. Leigh's presenting me with options here, so I know where this conversation's at. Where do I need to shift it to now to have the most impact?" And I can shift it to the goal and say, "Well, tell me about this option, Leigh. What would be the benefit of that?" We get a sense of what's happening and what would be the purpose of implementing this. Or, we can shift it to reality and think about, "So what are resources we need? What have we already got in place here that would help?" Or, we can move it further down the scaffold and look at, "So, which ones of these will have the most impact for year eight?"

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
"What might be the next steps? Who else needs to be involved?" So it's not just a formal conversation. It's the skills and tools of coaching applied across the continuum to add value to the corridor and carpark conversations, and sometimes the meeting after the meeting, where the real meeting happens.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes. I expect it's quite an enlivening thing for both people involved in that conversation?

Jason Pascoe:
Look, I love to coach. So, it is for me and it is for the people that I coach. What we hear back from participants is, well, let me sum it up in a comment."These are the conversations that I love to have because I'm helping people shine."

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah. I was going to ask you. What does it do to you? I know it's about helping people, helping people, but it must be very gratifying to you, as well?

Jason Pascoe:
It's gratifying and people always impress me.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah.

Jason Pascoe:
When they navigate their way through places they thought were very sticky for them and they can see a way, and even if it's just some next steps, it builds hope.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Give me a practical example. Have you seen this work out? In an education context.

Jason Pascoe:
I was working with a school a couple of weeks ago, and it was some year advisors that I was talking to and they were a year in after their initial programme.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Jason Pascoe:
We got them to come in and share with some of the other staff, who were going through the same programme a few weeks ago. The example I gave was students who would potentially have a bit of a meltdown around assessment or exam time, and they would find those students coming to them every day. Taking this coaching conversation and applying it to those interactions, they were finding that the students weren't coming to them every day. There was a day, three or four days, of gap in there. That didn't mean they had less to do, but what it did mean is they got to see other students, who would often fly under the radar.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yes.

Jason Pascoe:
And these young people who were coming to them and struggling, the reason that there was more of a gap is they had something to go out and try that was different to the strategies that they had before.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Is that improving their results? Is that improving their well-being in school?

Jason Pascoe:
The suggestion from this particular school was that it was improving both.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Yeah, okay. Yeah. What's the link? Say, with results?

Jason Pascoe:
Well, if you look at the global framework for coaching in education, and one of the portals there is Students' Success and Well-Being. There's been several pieces of research done (see Recommended Reading below). Dr. Steven Palmer was one of them, who did the initial, one of the initial studies there. Where they got, as universities do get a big grant, trained coaches and got external coaches to train students who were borderline achievers. Over a period of time, there was a significant improvement in academic performance.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
Okay.

Jason Pascoe:
Christian van Nieuwerburgh started to look at students coaching each other, and he found that a sense of belonging and connexion to school improved for both the students who were coached, and the student coaches. And that's the link that we're starting to see, and we're starting to develop, and we're starting to hear back from schools around both achievement and well-being.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
It's an inspiring approach and I know it's making a difference in schools all over the place. Jason Pascoe, thank you so much for joining us.

Jason Pascoe:
Thanks for having me.

Leigh Hatcher (presenter):
You've been listening to the Growth Coaching International Podcast. I'm Leigh Hatcher. If you'd like to make that kind of difference, head to our website,www.growthcoaching.com.au

References:

• Christian van Nieuwerburgh, (2014) ‘An Introduction to Coaching Skills – A Practical Guide’ - Sage
• Joyce, B., & Showers, B. (1995). ‘Student Achievement Through Staff Development: Fundamentals of School Renewal’ (2nd ed.). White Plains, NY: Longman.
• Showers, B., Joyce, B. and Bennett, B. (1987). ‘Synthesis of research on staff development: A framework for future study and a state-of-the-art analysis.’ Educational Leadership
• Showers, Beverly & Joyce, Bruce 1982, ‘The Coaching of Teaching’, Educational Leadership vol. 40, no. 1
• Showers, Beverly & Joyce, Bruce 1996, ‘The Evolution of Peer Coaching’, Educational Leadership, vol. 53, no. 6
• Dr Jim Knight’s videos:
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FrWTXC8Uw
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpeIKNJholI